chennaicentral

41 Comments:

At 12/06/2005 10:32 PM,  Anonymous said...

Dear Thennavan,

Wow! This is the best article you've written. I have observed these trends in Desi-American media as well. (I once wrote to South Asia World TV about this bias) I don't understand how they ignore the whole southern part of our country.

I am totally surprised about the facts and figures given. Wonderful collection of data.

Thanks for all the data and the effort put in for this fine article.

KJM

 

At 12/07/2005 12:43 AM,  Parthasarathi said...

The article however informative, will go down pathetic because of your ridiculous mention of "Venkataramans and Ramaswamys". If they were so concerned about their tamildom, why the hell did they go to B'lore. It's time you Tams realised that India is a country and Tamil Nadu is a a part of it! Where is a field where there isn't politics and PR pushing things, you mean to say Tamil Nadu is being straightforward and honest unlike the rest of the country, by not trying to projec itself as a IT hub?

 

At 12/07/2005 2:40 AM,  S m i t h a said...

i had goose bumps reading the statistics.. thank you for that. very well written as always.

 

At 12/07/2005 8:48 AM,  thennavan said...

KJM and Smitha, thanks. Just doing my bit to highlight the bias in the coverage.

Parthasarathi or whatever else anonymous name you would like to call yourself (whoever you are, logging in from Salt Lake City, UT :-)), you fail to see the point. It is not about the Tamilians who went to Bangalore. That is the past tense. They went there, they settled there and they helped that part of the country prosper. The point is why is their service not being recognized now, with a credit back to Tamilnadu, the state that they belong to, in the first place. Regarding your point about whether TN is also not playing a PR game (in trying to project itself as an IT hub), I would say "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" but the point here is that TN has the stuff to strut it whereas your also-rans like Hyderabad should not occupy reams and reams of newsprint the basis for all of which is flimsy ground while TN stands on rock-solid foundation. Got it now?

 

At 12/07/2005 9:09 AM,  Ambar said...

>>In fact, anecdotal evidence suggests that Bangalore shot to fame as an electronics first and an IT next destination because of the many Venkatramans and Ramaswamys from Tamilnadu who had migrated there and who were employed in the public sector organizations like BEL (Bharat Electronics Limited), ITI (Indian Telephone Industries) and HAL (Hindustan Aeronautics Limited) in R & D positions. So, even Bangalore's IT revolution was more or less kick-started by the brains from neighboring Chennai and other parts of Tamilnadu, who were naturals in the sciences and technology areas.

Thoroughly researched and interesting post overall. However, with the line above you have lost all claims to impartiality and the right to accuse others of bias. You've managed to paint yourself with the same brush as the media outfits you're railing against.

>>But that is not my point here.
If its not your point, it would be better if you removed the statements.

 

At 12/07/2005 9:43 AM,  thennavan said...

Ambar, thanks for the feedback. I don't see any reason as to why my observation becomes impartial in that statement since that is a verifiable fact and being one, it needs to be highlighted to drive home the point. The fact that I too belong to the same state does not detract from it.

 

At 12/07/2005 9:57 AM,  Ambar said...

Every discussion invloving comparisons between cities usually degenerates into an ethnically charged slanging match. With statements like the one i quoted in the previous comment, you're just making the probability of the ethnic slanging match way higher. Also, the part about verifiability is rather dubious.

 

At 12/07/2005 11:44 AM,  GREATBONG said...

Hi,

Its indeed a sad reflection on the state of our media that such biased reporting takes place. However articulating such opinions as yours (and let me say I think you make a good case) usually leads to some crackpots belonging to the "other cities" attacking you for parochialism. I am speaking from experience here.

I find it great that you assert yourself as a Chennai-loving Indian blogger....but unfortunately assigning oneself such labels usually causes such an ugly backlash that you feel like throwing your hands in the air and tugging your own hair.

 

At 12/07/2005 12:54 PM,  thennavan said...

Ambar, I should have actually mentioned "partial" but was probably in a hurry to type :-). Well, I do agree that comparing cities arouses passions like none does and have posted on this too, but that cannot be a reason not to bring these disparities into the open. And my statement can be verified for its authenticity just by a dip-stick survey of the people who had served in those organizations before the advent of the IT boom. I am not in the habit of speaking without a basis, as many of my regulars on this blog know (and I also know you have visited my blog and left comments as early as my "Thennavan turns lexicographer" several months back as well as knowing you as a regular on Nilu's blog) :-)

 

At 12/07/2005 1:26 PM,  Naveen said...

Chennai is doing well and is attracting investments across sectors. What is wrong with other cities getting good press - is it a case of sour grapes? Bangalore is getting so much negative press these days and still you find companies like Intel and MS sinking in millions into their Bangalore centres because of its track record. Any city which has potential will get investments no matter whether it is projected as such in the press or not. The press is
inherently biased whether you like it or not because they are ultimately run by biased human beings. TI and GE set up their units in Bangalore without any press fanfare years back and Bangalore is reaping the rewards now. Similarly Chennai will reap the rewards of present investments in the future. There is enough pie for all cities to share.
And your point about Tamilians being responsible for Bangalore's IT revolution is laughable to put it in mild terms. Just like Mumbai is what it is today because of Mumbaikars, Bangalore was and is made by Bangaloreans - Kannadigas, Tamilians, Telegus, Malayalis, Gujaratis and Sindhis, and lately Bengalis and Biharis too. So it is not just people of a particular state or region making Bangalore what it is today.If you do not understand the history and culture of a city, please do not comment on how it has developed. Bangalore's IT revolution's seeds were sown long back when Nehru and the Tatas helped set up various tech-based PSUs and the IISc and other research institutes. Please research the population break-up of those instititions to understand the fallacies of your statements. All your
'Venkataramans' and 'Ramaswamys' are Bangaloreans today and not just Tamilians. Since when did a city develop overnight without a corresponding industrial 'ecosystem' being setup. If you cannot see the techno-industrial base (not just the media-friendly IT sector but also space, aeronautics, electronics, cotton and silk textiles, auto components etc.) that Bangalore has built up, then you wouldn't understand what I am talking about. You seem to
think that Bangalore is IT and IT is Bangalore. Before the IT-ITeS boom, there were 4.5 million people there. Where do you think those people were/are working? Karnataka needs to imrpove holistically no doubt and it is trying to attract investements in secondary cities like Mysore and Mangalore too but that doesn't take away Bangalore's attractiveness to investors.
Now your mention about Bangalore's Silicon Valley tag...if Chennai may call itself India's Detroit because it has Ford, Hyundai, Mahindra and other auto majors; if Mumbai is India's financial capital for obvious reasons, why not Bangalore which has the likes of GE, IBM, HP, Infy, Wipro, Accenture, EDS, Motorola, Samsung, Phillips and many others housed there? Pray, what's in an epithet? When people from world over have been impressed by Bangalore's techies - not just code-jocks but also the serious R&D guys, I don't see anything wrong in a name. I just don't understand all this heartburn among Chennai-ites about Bangalore and Hyderabad (Cyberabad), and Bangalore in particular. There are umpteen statements in your post that show this. This tendency, if I may so, is one of the reasons that Chennai's 'perception' among people from other states is not as good when compared to Mumbai, Bangalore or Hyderabad. I hope you get my point. You are an Indian first and a Tamilian later. You never know, you or your employer may benefit from another city's industry.
So, work towards building Chennai's brand but not at the cost of putting down the brand values of other 'Indian' cities.
PS: All those statistics and facts you mentioned, why don't you write an article about TN and Chennai's achievements and forward them to sites like Rediff so that people get to know them. Mere ranting about them on blogs is of no use!!
PPS: This post wasn't meant to demean Chennai. It is 'one' of India's foremost cities. Though staying just 300 odd kms away, I have visited it only once when I was very young and remember visting the Marina Beach, the Snake park (or Crocodile park??) and the Ashtalakshmi temple and would love to visit it and see its progress. This post was just to get across the perspective from the other side. There is no black and white - only grey in this world. Every city has its pros and cons and how it maximizes its pros is what makes the city.

 

At 12/07/2005 1:37 PM,  Nandu said...

I've been following your blog for sometime now and find your posts very interesting. However, in all honesty, there are a couple of things which I felt I should point out in terms of this post. By way of background, I too am from Chennai, and consequently, please do not consider my points to be 'biased' due to being from 'other cities'.

1. "The DELIBERATE misinformation campaign that has obfuscated the truth ... by a section of the Indian press is really beginning to show its mettle now" (emphasis mine). With respect, aren't you jumping out on a ledge here? You contend that this is being DELIBERATELY, without any specific explanation for why this is being done in the first place (apart from the part in that para which refers to PR machineries).

2. "rather than the free-flowing booze and "compliments" from the overworking PR machinery of the other state governments..." Let's agree on one thing - PR machineries have a role to play - the promotion of their particular self-interests. So is your argument that 'free-flowing booze' is an inappropriate method of PR? Why, pray? As a PR person, my job is get publicity....not to get publicity through approaches that are common to me and all my competitors. And besides the use of entertainment and lifestyle approaches to wooing customers (read: MSM) is just basic marketing - this has nothing to do with 'right' or 'wrong'. Alternately, is the argument that MSM in India are influenced more by booze than facts? Again, if so, this should apply across the board to all news reporting and not only to coverage of TN as an IT destination - which may be the case, but is a point you do not choose to elaborate on.

3. "anecdotal evidence suggests that Bangalore shot to fame as an electronics first and an IT next destination because of the many Venkatramans and Ramaswamys from Tamilnadu who had migrated there ..." I am a Tamilian too like you and proud to be one. Yet to say that Bangalore's growth was a function of Tamilian migration to the city is to deny the role that other communities have played in the city's development. Also, as you so correctly point out, this proves/does nothing about your argument regarding MSM coverage of Chennai as an IT destination. As you also mention, the evidence which you rely on is 'anecdotal'. In other words, not quantitative, scientific or emprically proven. Sweeping generalisations of this sort can only hurt your arguments....

4. Twice, within your post, you refer to the MSM you have an issue with as "Mammon-worshipping Mumbai/Delhi-based Mainstream Media". Eliminating any regional bias from your statement (which may not be appropriate, given that you specifically choose to refer to particular regions of the country where the MSM are supposedly Mammon-worshippers), I appreciate your argument that media has a purpose and getting swayed by better PR should not come in the way of that purpose. Having said that, media too is a business and needs to be run with a profit-motive - so suggesting that MSM not be Mammon-worshippers, but seekers of 'truth' (however commercially unviable it is), may not be right. If MSM chooses to focus on particular areas of the country, the correctness of that decision will be reflected in increasing/decreasing readership/viewership. As a journalist, the only thing I work for is being read by people. Implying that some sections of the MSM have enough control to be able to 'ignore' specific communities/geographies assumes a thorough lack of control by market forces in MSM in India today. If your news coverage is good, your audience will increase, period. This is simply economics, and nothing to do with being a 'mammon worshipper'.

5. One final point, the argument here is that MSM do not give Chennai enough coverage. Open any recent Indian news magazine and one of the bigger stories of the last month or so has been the whole Khushboo controversy. As Chennai natives, we should be aware of this moral policing and retrograde values prohibiting an individual's right to speak freely that reflect badly on our city. To cover only Chennai's good aspects and take credit as Tamilians for the growth of Bangalore completely ignores the rather more cosmopolitan nature of life in that city and the advantages that this cosmopolitan nature brings to its attractiveness as a business destination.

Apologies if I seem too rude, I simply feel that you're making some really sweeping strong remarks here. This is a personal blog and I am all for freedom of speech, but some of the statements in here, seemed to not only be debatable, but also adding little value to your original contention, that MSM are unjustified in 'ignoring' Chennai (and that this rejection of Chennai is driven by 'Mammon-worshipping media' who worship at the altar of free booze and race with each other in printing news that ignores Chennai and focusses on cities where they get 'compliments' from unscrupulous PR machineries).

 

At 12/07/2005 6:22 PM,  thennavan said...

Naveen and Nandu (N & N :-)), I want to address both of your comments in the same one since there are overlapping areas in both of yours that I can address. First of all, I really, really appreciate the time and effort you both have put in commenting and I don't have issues with much of what you say except the fact that you are equally in the dark as to my knowledge of Bangalore. Assuming that both of you are several years younger to me, I must add that I am familiar with Bangalore from the early 80s which may be around the time you were born :-) or were too young, and so I have good knowledge about the history of Bangalore long, long before it became as multi-ethnic as you put it (which has only happened recently after the IT boom). Back then, Malleswaram was (and probably is) a hardcore Tamilian area and Thamizh was almost second language over there since most people could speak it (having been migrants themselves from neighbouring Tamilnadu). So, the hallowed institutions that you speak about, not only do I have indepth knowledge about their role in shaping Bangalore's destiny but also who shaped them (I almost had one relative in each of those PSUs and knew of several Tamilians working there, thru them). As I said to Ambar, I don't usually post without checking up on my facts and if you look carefully at what I said, I am ONLY talking about Tamilians who were in the R & D (and other science/engg. areas) in all those PSUs. My brother did his Masters in Engineering from I.I.Sc in the mid eighties and I know for a fact that many of his profs were Tamilians.

There could have been other ethnicities that contributed to the overall cosmopolitan culture of Bangalore but I mentioned Tamilians only in reference to the hardcore science/engg. areas which would have been the first resource base on which to draw subsequent talents when the It industry bloomed over there.

I don't think Chennai-vasis/lovers including yours truly need any stamp of approval from anyone and I would say least of all from the not-favorably-disposed-towards-Tamilnadu-press who have their own prejudices in reporting anyways. To call someone a criminal, one need not have to draw attention to onself as a good man or whatever. If someone is committing a crime, they ARE a criminal and to say so in a direct manner does not need anything more than observation power and that is exactly how I am pointing to the reporting bias here without having to feel apologetic or defensive about it. I am quite happy and contented about the state and city of my nativity and don't feel any compelling need to prove anything to anybody :-).

My post may look as though I am picking on Bangalore (or Hyderabad) in some portions of it, but it is not and maybe only a passing reference to whether those cities deserve those tags or not. In fact, in Bangalore's case I don't grudge the label and do admire the impressive strides the city has made from being a quiet retirement heaven to a bustling and vibrant city full of aspirations of the young and talented. My post is about the bias in the media against Chennai/Tamilnadu which is blatant and palpable in the way they have conveniently sidelined this metropolis. That is why it is a "DELIBERATE" obfuscation since it is definitely not done in ignorance.

There is nothing whatsoever laughable in what I said regarding Tamilians since you people may not know it but historically due to the nearness with Tamilnadu, a set of Iyengars led by the Vaishnavite Saint Ramanuja crossed over into Karnataka from Tamilnadu to escape the wrath of the then-ruling Chola King who was a Saivite and these Tamil speaking people later picked up the local dialect where they went and even today they are known as Hebbar or Mandyam Iyengars who settled in various parts of Karnataka, particularly Bangalore. Which is why there was always a big Tamil population over there and this has been since time immemorial. Even logically, the physical proximity of the "then" small but growing "town" Bangalore to the major "city" of Madras would ensure more Tamilian influx into that city than the thousands of miles that a Bihari, Sindhi or Gujarati would have made it and again as I said, I don't speak without basis. Your reference time-frame is much smaller than mine and that's why you fail to see my argument. So, I "do understand enough of history and culture" about that place to comment on it :-).

The ecosystem I referred to was not related to Bangalore and I hope you read my post thoroughly before jumping to conclusions. Even if the Venkatramans and Ramaswamys are Bangaloreans "technically" today, you cannot wish away their ancestry and origin and I was referring to the contribution of the Tamilnadu in that respect, however back-dated or historical it is. All the industries you have mentioned I am aware of and that is why what I said was with particular reference to the IT industry but your argument seems to suggest as though it came out of the ground on its own (like a "Swayambhu") with no relation to the contribution of an earlier electronics era that sowed the seeds for the IT industry. So, before "you" assume what I "think", please try to understand what I "really think" since I guess it is I who knows that best :-).

Again no heart-burn against Bangalore just that "provide credit where it is due" and this is directed at the bigoted section of the media that reports selectively. I don't think I need to be any less Indian because I take pride in my particular nativity that is determined by a linguistic state in India. Remember that the whole is the sum of the parts and you can't expect regional identity to be sacrificed at the altar of what a section of "intelligentsia" may want to represent as a pan-Indian identity. I guess that reeks of condescension. We need not be talkig about whether or not an employer gets to benefit from one city or another. This post is about why a glaring omission is made about a city that is second best in the very same industry that the press is going ga-ga about. So, please clear your mind that anybody who forwards an argument that says "you did not recognize us knowingly" is trying to put down other cities.

I am not "ranting" here on my blog (not that it is bad in itself :-)) but my blog does attract discerning readers and I consider myself an opinion-maker on some issues and this being an important one, I would rather freely express it on my blog where there are no restrictions instead of expecting some "kindred" editor at some online portal to carry my ideas. I guess I am old enough to understand color concepts, but thanks for the enlightenment on black, white and grey :-)

Nandu, I think I already answered the "deliberate" issue above. Booze here is not any reference to good or bad but to what any journo would think as a privilege, especially if it is an exotic variety and this wining and dining culture may be good for business relations but when it comes to reporting facts, I think a scribe should stick to the truth and not allow the "tangible" perks of his/her job to color his/her judgement on such a vital issue as reporting the state of the economy in a particular sector. Even if a MSM were in the business for money, the nature of their profession demands that they be truthful to the circumstances and report them as best as they are and without personal prejudices and preferences.

Regarding the Tamilian migration bit, I have covered again the basis for what I said and to reiterate, this was only in reference to this particular sector where a whole lot of Tamilians concentrated due to socio-cultural-education-opportunities factor. Regarding the reach and influence of MSMs, I don't say that by their not reporting Tamilnadu has done any worse but their own credibility as disseminators of news and impartial views is at stake here.

Regarding Kushboo, I do not buy the argument that one or two such episodes can be basis enough to totally black-out other positive news from a region since by that token, even Mumbai should be sidelined for its other achievements but only highlighted for the moral policing by Shiv Sena, the frequent blasts that occur there, the power of the underworld, instances like a cop assaulting a young couple and raping the girl in broad daylight in a busy area etc. but these Mumbai or Delhi based press don't do that. Instead they gloat over how Mumbai came together during such crises and pulled thru and all that. When it comes to reporting anything that is not their home base, they apply selective judgement and in the case of Chennai, I know that there is always a deep-rooted animosity since Tamilnadu stood up to Hindi-bullying and so it is seen as a separate state that does not "conform" to the "mainstream". Tough luck in selling Bollywood and other "imported" and "polluted" cultures to a much older culture that takes great pride in itself in that part of India.

You may feel whatever you choose to but I always speak with the courage of my convictions and I am unfortunately "spot on" on this issue and "in your face" when expressing it, what can I do? :-)

 

At 12/07/2005 6:33 PM,  thennavan said...

Greatbong, thanks for the comment. Don't worry I'll never throw up my hands in despair or tug my hair since I am annoyingly self-assured in what I express :-)

 

At 12/07/2005 6:33 PM,  Anonymous said...

"So, even Bangalore's IT revolution was more or less kick-started by the brains from neighboring Chennai and other parts of Tamilnadu, who were naturals in the sciences and technology areas. But that is not my point here." - I wonder what statistic you use to arrive at the conclusion that Tamilians are naturals at science at technology. Whatever it is, thats a pretty ludicrous statement. If any community can claim they are naturals at science and technology it should be the Jews based on the sheer number of Nobel laureates. And if Tamil Nadu is such a great place to be with such naturally talented people - why did they have to go to Bangalore in the first place?

 

At 12/07/2005 6:36 PM,  thennavan said...

I guess you are not aware of the historical reasons as to the migration of Tamilians whether be it Bangalore or Bombay or elsewhere. You are also really not aware of the socio-cultural reasons as to why more Tamilians than any other set of people in India took to the sciences and engineering. If you can read up on those and come back and comment here, maybe we can have a "discussion" :-)

 

At 12/07/2005 8:26 PM,  Nandu said...

We may not agree about everything we discuss, but I must admit, I'm impressed by the courage of your convictions. Thanks for your time and willingness to respond in such detail.

 

At 12/07/2005 9:25 PM,  Anonymous said...

I have spent close to 12 years in the science and technology area starting from my undergrad years at IIT, subsequent worklife and graduate school in the US now and I have to say that I did not see a preponderence of Tamilians compared to any other set of people in India. Before that I spent all my life in an IIT campus and I knew all the professors quite well because they were my dad's colleagues. So it is pretty hard to digest that Tamilians are somehow naturally predisposed to science and technology. I would go as far so to say that any community which proclaims itself as naturally predisposed to any set of skills is walking on very thin ice.

 

At 12/07/2005 11:23 PM,  Shreyas said...

Hi Thennavan,

Very thought-provoking post. Just a few questions though:

1) What is the point you are trying to make when you say "....Bangalore shot to fame as an electronics first and an IT next destination because of the many Venkatramans and Ramaswamys from Tamilnadu ....." ? First of all, it is quite presumptous to state that its only because of tamilians Bangalore shot to fame. That apart, even if it was true, why should that take away credit from Bangalore's success? Any metropolitan city that is developing will be a hub for people from various locations and will eventually become a melting pot of a varied diaspora. Personally, having seen most of the other metro cities, I find Bangalore and Mumbai to be the most accomodative to foriegners. Hence, the fuelling of the IT boom in Bangalore is not just because of the Ramaswamys et al, but also because of the Chatterjees, the Mehtas, the Raos and the Sharmas.

2. I suspect it is quite naive to expect the world to be fair and the media to do the "right" thing. If Chennai does not get focussed, is it not the State Government's PR machinery to blame? Should they also not ensure there is sufficient media coverage of their state? When I was in Bangalore, I was witness to a number of IT and electronics exhibitions that the state governemnt organized. Many of them still continue. PR for the state, in the end, has to be driven by the particular state government. I am not sure that all MSM is influenced by "booze and compliments". Even if it is and that is how the media works, either one should hop on or forget about the media totally. Not let the lack of coverage spawn posts, venting frustration.

3. Finally, the impression most people north of the Vindhyas have of Chennai is that it is a difficult, regressive and "closed" city. Now I know this is quite exaggerated and even completely untrue. But, that is the impression they carry. Most of them talk of Chennai posting as if it is a curse. In fact, some of my batchmates refused job offers just because it is Chennai , without even having visited the city once. This is the mainstream opinion of a majority of the junta. Here again, I feel that State Government can do a lot by creating positive vibes around Chennai and not let Khushboo and Discos garner media-space.

In the end, like with everyone and everything else, selling is important. Take the statistics you quote for example. I did not know many of these!! Why cannot the TN government ensure these details reach the mainstream public elsewhere in the country too?? The media in the end is just a voice of public opinion and also, a tool to create word-of-mouth publicity. If you use it well, you will ensure there is enough media and mind space that is created.

 

At 12/08/2005 3:52 AM,  Naveen said...

My post was basically intended to drive home the point that when you have people from various ethnicities in a single place, there will be diffusion of ideas between them. So, if an institution like an IISc or a BEL did well, it was not just a particular ethnic group that overperformed; it was the sum total of ideas from every group. I don't think any particular group can claim that inclination towards Science and Technology comes naturally towards them...because all communities have contributed towards the growth of ancient Indian sciences. Coming to technology, modern machinery (cotton and jute textiles for example) was imported from the West and wherever there were large industrial setups (Ahmedabad, Calcutta, Bombay), these machines were used. So, again all communities did incline towards technology because it was essential for their survival. By communities here, I don't mean just linguistic but also religious. So, the whole of India's post independence industrial setup was an amalgamation of people from all over through employment in the PSU sector and no community can claim that they were/are naturally S&T inclined.
Coming to regional identity, here too no one state can claim that linguistically it tries to assert its identity. For that matter, the Gokak Agitation in 1982 in Karnataka was to make sure that the regional language was the primary language of communication in the state and yes, it was against the same urban "intelligentsia" that tried to thrust Hindi/English on other states. So, each and every state has had its own trysts with regionalistic feelings. So, in the ultimate analysis, every group which claims that it is different is no different from any other group.
In such an old civilization like India, there have been so many large-scale migrations from one place to another and the way communities have interacted, that it becomes very difficult to pinpoint a particular factor(s) that led to development in a particular area. For example, Sanksrit has many words from Tamil (according to my friends because I don't understand the Tamil that people speak in Tamil mythological movies that is very formal in nature:) ) and vice-versa while Kannada whose mother is Sanskrit has contributed words to Sanskrit if ancient inscriptions found in Karnataka are to be believed. So where exactly do you draw a line when you say that this or that was the main cause for this or that effect. This is what I meant by greying of causal factors.

 

At 12/09/2005 2:31 PM,  blokes said...

grow up Thennavan! The very fact that hennai is not on the map makes it special- it is not plagued with skyhigh pries for rents and commodities. kannpadaama irukkattum!
http://blokesablogin.rediffblogs.com

 

At 12/09/2005 8:15 PM,  thennavan said...

Anon, everybody's experience is different but what I say is beyond the subjective since how else can you explain the consistency in TN churning out the maximum number of engineering students and the general strength here in the sciences compared to the North. Culturally most Northies (and most is the operative word here) go into business or commerce and other "soft" courses whereas in TN, there is this mad rush to get into the really hardcore science areas. So, I am sure I am not walking on thin ice since I don't like that activity anyway :-)

Shreyas, I was not presumptuous on that and if you had read my previous reply to Naveen and Nandu, you would have seen I mentioned this only in the context of the employment in the science and technology areas of the PSUs in Bangalore and as I told Ambar, it is something that is verifiable if you took the effort to dig up the records over this.

This may seem like a rant and a frustrated post but I am actually not doing that, rather bringing this issue into the open with my own perspective since to quote an analogy, if you came second in class and were never reported in the school rankings but the first rank holder and the third and the fourth and the fifth and so on were reported, you would not think that you did not market yourself well, rather you would think those reporting those rankings were dunces and that is precisely my point here.

3. If people have a pre-conceived notion about a place, nothing can be done about it but who brought that image to them in the first place. The press, obviously and the press we know has its biases. So, bottomline is that my stand on this post is vindicated, right? :-) (Kushboo or other episodes have no relation to reporting the IT achievements of a state since there are so many negative things happening in each of the other cities that have been mentioned but why this treatment to Chennai alone is my question).

Naveen, thanks for some of those points mentioned like the Gokak agitation etc. but my point is very simple. I am not downgrading the inputs of others here but when it can be verified that a lot of Thamizh brains have ALSO helped Karnataka, then some digging back by reporters would uncover the gems in Tamilnadu and then they can go "hey, we did not cover this state in our reporting on IT achievements by cities and guess what, they also happen to be the 2nd largest exporters of software services". Now, how difficult would that have been? :-)

 

At 12/09/2005 8:17 PM,  thennavan said...

Blokes, here I was thinking I am a grown-up and matured person but here is someone reminding me of my childhood :-). Jokes apart, kannu pada poguthunnu sonnadhum naan konjam ushaaraayitten :-). Thanks for the comments BTW :-)

 

At 12/11/2005 3:28 PM,  Lovely said...

Hi Thennavan

Before I make any comments on ur blog, i should tell u that I am an NRI who constantly visits India, for that matter my home-city Chennai almost once a year. I read your post here and understood the implications of what you are trying to point out. You have succeeded in showing Chennai has the potential to go far ahead in the future. That is VERY well illustrated! Very Good!
But, the fact still remains about the media coverage bias towards this city. Apart from IT(which seems ur main agenda), I would say Chennai suffers a lot in other aspects of media too! Zee news, UK, did exactly a 2 minute coverage on the floods in Chennai; while they did a 20 minutes coverage on Bangalore rains. When India refused aid during the Southern Peninsula earthquake, almost NO coverage was shown of TamilNadu affected areas in CNN or BBC( shocking truth ).*all this was quite an experience for me because I assumed Chennai was "One of the important cities".*

This brings me to my next question. How well integrated is Chennai with other parts of India? Major point would be the language. Accept it that Chennaites are not that thrilled to be well versed in Hindi.(I find Bangalore is more open to it, and so is Hyderabad.)We cant at any cost ignore this as major part of the integration that connects cities together. The "Junta"(people) that we refer to are linked also through movies. Which Hindi movie that was blockbuster in North actually ran for a decent couple of weeks in Chennai? Very few! Hindi movies are often side-lined in Chennai theatres because there are not that many interested in watching them! Coming to the Khushboo issue, Chennaites are still debating on pre-maritial sex statements when the North is showing half nude chicks in almost all movie flicks! Khushboo is battling a statement she made here, while Mallika Sherawat's mms was creating news in the North. Sure, we can argue khusbhoo issue might have been politically motivated, but the media actually bought this? You and I may have not, but what is the truth is the files in the court against her! Heard of anyone putting defamation of "Indian naari" cases against Kareena for her public display of affection with her bf? The difference? South Indian movies are still portraying half saree clad heroines and traditional family setups while the North is portraying micro-mini heroines showing all their bulges engagin in extra-maritial affairs all over!

Would it be right to say Chennaites are being narrow-minded or should we say the other cities are being more broad-minded? Neither! I say Chennai wont be Chennai if we had people struting on streets like Mumbai or IT technos like Bangalore. Chennai is different. Let the Uniqueness stay! Let it speak for itself. Chennai, as a city, may not be making IT news but CHENNAITES are! Dayanidhi Maaran is IT minister! Tata Consultancy Services CEO is Tamilian. Major high posts in several IT companies are held by prestigious Tamilians. When these people represent India in world summits, they dont portray Mumbai or Bangalore. They portray their ethnic Tamil Culture. I suggest we don't put down Chennai's potential by asking for equal acceptance as Hyderabad and Bangalore. You are right in saying there is no city called Chennai. My objective is that it shouldnt become a co-Bangalore or co-Hyderabad at any point in the future too! Let Chennai be Chennai! That is where its uniqueness lies!

 

At 12/14/2005 12:20 AM,  thennavan said...

Lovely, thanks for the "lovely" post :-) and since you pasted the same comment over at the frequently visited Yaccs comments, I have replied over there :-)

 

At 12/31/2005 1:26 PM,  Sudhandiram said...

Hi Thennavan,

Very interesting article. Being a Bangalore residing (over 10 years in Bangalore…now in US) Thamizhan, I share the same view as yours. The responses to the comments given were good.
The Chennai’s ‘image’ outside Tamilnadu is one of the following:
· Our politicians
o No politician after Kamaraj known for his/her ability/goodness.
o Often compared to Bihar for its clumsy politicians (Though personally I do not think so)
o Cheap politics ( Stop the projects started by opposition party though it is good for the state…. etc)
· Language
o Non-acceptance of Hindi (Though I am against the “imposition” of Hindi).
o Our pride for our language.
· Climate
o Chennai’s climate is portrayed as bad (in fact sweating is good for the health), despite the fact that Chennai is the least polluted metro in India.
· Sophistication
o Often considered not so outgoing mainly due to our conservative outlook.
· Groupism
o Normally there is a feeling among others that Tamils form a group.

Responding to one point from Anonymous:
Tamilians has won more Nobel prizes for science than any other( no offence to other fellow countrymen) in our country.

Message to Naveen:
You said, “Indian first and a Tamilian later”. This is more of pseudo patriotism (This does not mean that I do not love my country. I love my country as much you do). In the same way we can even say first your are a living thing, then human being, then Asian, then Indian, then Tamilian, then Iyar, then family… There is no end to this. We need to be human beings with just and impartial to any country, color, or religion etc. We should be able to stand against any such act regardless of our own affiliation.

 

At 1/02/2006 1:11 AM,  Raaja said...

Check this Kannungala...


http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/006200601020310.htm

 

At 1/03/2006 9:03 PM,  thennavan said...

Sudhandiram, you have summarized some good points and have also taken on some of the other commentators. I appreciate your input on this topic and your sharing some info about yourself :-)

 

At 1/03/2006 9:03 PM,  thennavan said...

Thanks Raaja :-)

 

At 1/04/2006 3:54 AM,  "Citi"zen said...

Hi Thennavan,

I accept the most of the facts u have listed. The fact about Venkatramans....might be true, But That is a one point creating lots of tensions here...So better leave that.

I too had the same thought as u said.Whenever there is an article about indian IT industry,I see that Chennai is not even mentioned ,when Smaller contributors like Pune and Mysore are seen. People from all over India still think that Tamil Nadu is a worse place and Chennai is a "hell".I have seen these among my colleagues. They dont even want to see the city before they comment on it. The only problem they might have is language,but nowadays that isn't a problem.People are able to talk in Hindi or english. Everyone talk too much about Bangalore..do the Buses in Bangalore have routes written in english?, Chennai has...
U say Hyderabad is better than Chennai,In what way...weather is the same, except for Humidity.Bangalore is the only city with Pleasant weather. Do Delhi and Mumbai have pleasant weather?. C'mon I dont understand in what way media is judging a city. Media people from Mumbai,Bangalore,Delhi and Hyderabad can come to Chennai and see for themselves.Dont take a prick on a good city.My point here is not to compare Chennai and other cities.I just wanted to say that there is nothing missing in Chennai which is present in other cities, U can find even more here....Open your eyes and dont fall for perceptions..Perception about Bangalore and Hyderabad is as if they both are Shanghai and London.Visit those cities then u will get the reality. Perception building should always be balanced with reality but Some cities are hyped too much...Just because a city has huge population doesn't mean that its a great city. People should be able to travel to their work places and back home without much problems, should be able to get good education for their children, good health care, low cost of living,etc.I dont think the other cities have all these features.Media just portrays cities with high cost of living as the best cities.Just because a city consumes so much ,doesn't mean its a great city. Wake up guyssss....U are years behind what is happening in a city in your country...

 

At 1/11/2006 12:50 PM,  THINKER said...

Although no Indian city is of real international std, Bangalore today has become a brand.A brand that is irresistable.Infrastructure is bad.It was bad even since Krishna days.But despite that today we have 1600 IT cos.The II place goes to Delhi with 200 cos!!!!! Why has this happenned? Not because of any venkataramans or tom,dick,harry.It is because of the friendly hospitability nature of Kannadigas.
If u say Tamilians r responsible for Bangalore's growth,then why Chennai didn't become IT capital.It is full of Venkataramans. Whether is good in Bangalore, agreed.But there are other factors that contribute. The most important is local culture.
Can u imagine setting up inds in places like Patna. U always need a conducive local culture/atmosphere.
This is where Chennai is lagging behind.To become an international brand u cannot just rant Tamil,Tamil,Tamilian.U need a high quality culture.If U ask anyone in the country, Bangalore will be his first choice,(Although we Kannadigas dont like that)Chennai will be the last.The perception abt Chennai is that it is too regionalistic,Chauvinistic,Language problem,Unaccommodating,Bad wheather and the list never ends.
U like it or not this is THE FACT.
Tamilians have not contributed in any way to Bangalore.Rather they have created more stinking slums in Blore.The generosity of Kannadigas are taken for granted,u imported people from ur state & dumped in lucrative jobs.This "chalugiri" is not practced by Kannadigas.Outsiders should recognise ur city,you cannot beg for publicity.If there is anything worth abt ur city certainly u will get coverage.U Tamilians think that anything can be got by arm-twisting as you do in politics in Delhi.U must remeber Narayanamurthy is a Kannadiga.Chennai cannot become Bangalore. And to talk abt other cities,indeed I feel they are much better than Chennai.Chennai has some unique culture which outsiders donit like.

 

At 1/13/2006 1:19 PM,  Sudhandiram said...

Namaskara Thinker avare!

Do you know…
Do you know Tamilnadu is the MOST industrialized state in south India?
Do you know Tamilnadu has more literacy rate than Karnataka?
Do you know Tamilnadu is the biggest Economy in South Inida?
Do you know Chennai has as many Telugus as Banagalore has Tamilians and more Malayalies than Bangalore has.


If Chennai does not have “conducive local culture/atmosphere”, why ‘Kannadiga’ Narayanamurthy building his world’s biggest campus in Chennai? TCS has its biggest campus in Chennai? Why more automobiles industry in Chennai than Bangalore?
The Chennai has woken up late in the IT race because of the bad politics.


How much percentage of Bangalore’s software Engineers are Kanadigas?
When it comes to Bangalore…it is because of the climate and the proximity to Andhra and Tamilnadu. Not because of Kannadigas…

But when it comes to Andhra and Tamilnadu, it is because of the people.

You said, “Chennai is that it is too regionalistic,Chauvinistic,Language problem”. Come to Chennai and see how the nameplates of our city buses are written in English unlike Bangalore( Even the bus numbers are writtens in Kannada in Bangalore). Recently many software company name boards were smashed as it was not written in Kannada. The language stand in Tamilnadu(atleast for the politicians), it is NOT against any language. It is only against any “Imposition”.

The Chennai does not have the water resources…other than that it has every thing to compensate it’s water problem.
We are not against Kannadigas, we are only talking about the partiality done to Chennai…the way you have given you comment shown that you are against Tamilians. You have the inferiority complex…please change your attitude. Please understand the article written by Thennavan in good sense.

 

At 1/14/2006 10:33 AM,  THINKER said...

I don know from where u got info that Infosys & TCS r setting up biggest campus in Chennai.
Chennai has some important Auto inds.But only this doesn't qualify for it to b anywhere near Blore.
If proximity to AP & TN is the reason for Blore's growth,why not
bordering areas of that state.There exactly lies the answer.Even if Blore is on the borders of TN,AP why any town in TN or AP are not like Blore.Weather is same. But the key issue of "LOCAL CULTURE" play the role.
To prove this, we have Mysore & Mangalore r on the list of top cities for IT investment.Today everyone is talking abt these two cities. Infact, I was much surprised that in some national magazine Mysore was projected as hot destination for IT after Bangalore six months ago.Today indeed it is coming true.The growth rate of these 2 cities is phenomenal.These 2 cities r nowhere near AP or TN.Infosys has set up Global Training centre in Mysore.There are about 100 companies already vying for land in these cities.
In TN, I repeat there is no conducive local culture.In the sense,an international city looks.
Last year when I visited Chennai for the first time,I was surprised that this historical city was worse than I was told.
Filth was what I saw at many places.Agreed,Indian cities are not that clean.But what I experienced in Chennai was horrible, except for few roads which were really nice.
And this Khushboo kind of issues keep cropping up in TN.You need a totally different culture to become a brand like Blore.
Please do some introspecton.

 

At 1/15/2006 5:20 AM,  "Citi"zen said...

Mr.Thinker,

You are being so kiddish,not to believe on facts,because of your love for Bangalore.I am from Chennai and working in Bangalore for 2 years.I find that Bangalore was acting like a magnet attracting Professionals from Whole India and TN and AP in particular.There are lesser number of Kannadigas working in Bangalore than others is a fact and you should accept that.Bangalore being on a border added to people coming to Bangalore from TN or AP ,because Bangalore was nearer to them than from Chennai or Hyderabad.C'mon for IT industries to come up,they need planned cities with lots of Educational institutions rather than just being in border.In that case Bangalore was in a better situaton than Hyderabad or Chennai.Chennai is full of filth?.Then how is Bangalore?...every city is on equal standards when we talk about being clean.IF there is a cooum for Chennai,isn't there any canals carrying sewage in Bangalore?.I have seen then in lots of places.You have some good gardens..I agree,but dont say that Chennai is ****** and ******.If you are interested in blogging about facts...fine.Lets leave it here. Bangalore made huge strides and became a brand .Everyone accepts that,but you should see the history when Bangalore came under Madras state before fifties, then there was a huge tamil population was staying in Bangalore.It is now a part of Bangalore.Don't say that Tamilians are adding slums to Bangalore.Then you cannot deny the fact that the kannadigas from northern part of Karnataka are adding to the slums of Mumbai.This is a fact.People move from one place to another,it happens in all places,but Bangalore historically had a big Tamil population which you cannot deny. So please stop your hatred towards Chennai.

You said "Last year when I visited Chennai for the first time,I was surprised that this historical city was worse than I was told.
Filth was what I saw at many places.Agreed,Indian cities are not that clean.But what I experienced in Chennai was horrible, except for few roads which were really nice.
And this Khushboo kind of issues keep cropping up in TN.You need a totally different culture to become a brand like Blore."

Do you think Bangalore is not like this?.I had the same feeling when I came to Bangalore.People were praising Bangalore like Heaven,but when i went there,i felt the same way as you said.Your case was better as you already had some negative thoughts of Chennai.Bangalore had a very good culture...true,but that is past.Now people come and shout slogans against MNCs asking them to give a quota for Kannadigas,Is that what you call as Globalisation?.Kushboo issue is different,That has nothing to do with Chennai.It was politics in Tamil Ndau.Are u sure that Karnataka is not concervative?.Bangalore alone is not Karnataka.Please remember that.
So if you still want to continue this argument ,I am ready for that,but you should be able to post about facts.Not hatreds...please..your words hurts all Tamilians.

 

At 1/15/2006 3:21 PM,  Sudhandiram said...

This for those who are like Mr.Thinker(?),
This is just a sample….

Infy to set up world’s largest software development centre in Chennai

Link: http://india.eu.org/1075.html
http://infotech.indiatimes.com/articleshow/881993.cms
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-881924,curpg-3.cms


TCS Chennai operations to become its biggest

Link: http://www.tata.com/tcs/media/20040728.htm
http://www.zeenews.com/znnew/articles.asp?aid=170207&sid=BUS&ssid=54


IT: Is Bangalore losing out to Chennai?
Link: http://www.rediff.com/money/2004/jul/23it.htm


Most developed infrastructure & largest number of software professionals in the country.

Link: http://www.chennaibest.com/discoverchennai/citylifestyle/destinationchennai.asp
http://www.mastek.com/content/masteknews/detail.asp?item=news_415.xml


Learn about Chennai:
Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chennai
http://www.elcot.com/archives/itnews/2003/nov03/nh181103.htm

Chennai, the preferred destination for healthcare software & BPO:
http://www.expresshealthcaremgmt.com/20040531/informationtechnology01.shtml


Highest growth:
http://www.outsource2india.com/why_india/articles/india_outsourcing.asp

 

At 1/16/2006 8:45 AM,  "Citi"zen said...

I tried looking India in google Earth,even there Chennai was blacked out,Bangalore,Hyderabad,Delhi,Mumbai and Pune are shown.

The black out is not done in india alone,It is just because People just believe preceptions..But Chennai will defeat this perception and will really show its strengths. Wait and see..

 

At 1/18/2006 12:16 PM,  THINKER said...

Answer lies in your questions.
Why only chennai is blacked out?
That is the answer. Chennai is considered insignificant as far as world economics are concerned.It is B'lore& only B'lore. There are other cities which are much better than Chennai, but as of today, they stand nowhere near B'lore.
The 3 things familiar to outside world.
1.TAJMAHAL
2.M.K.GANDHI
3.BANGALORE-(THE LATEST ENTRANT)
I don c any city beating B'lore,(least of Chennai) atleast in near future.
These r the hard facts.
Be honest,do u really c anything of that sort happening?
A city needs certain qualities,which Chennai certainly don have.This is not hatred,but presenting facts.
U 've asked abt job reservation for Kannadigas.That's a fair demand considering dismal strength of Kannadigas in any organisaton.
Other states have unwritten reservation policy, (needless to say in TN it's a matter of policy)where locals get importance irrespective of thier merit.
The first & foremost objective of inviting inds to set up shops is- employment opportunity for locals. If that is not happening why v need these inds.
B'lore is getting such a bad press these days, despite that,all & sundry r rushing towards B'lore.Why?

 

At 1/19/2006 2:24 PM,  East India company said...

Ok it is time to take over the Indians again.

 

At 1/19/2006 2:57 PM,  East India company said...

Sir Robert Clive JRJrJRJR: Your highness, the first problem we face today is this guy from Tamil Nadu called Abdul Kalam , he is the president of country, more over, he is a nuclear scientist,

Queen: Oh I wish they had Devagowda, things would be easy - so what’s the plan then?

Sir Robert CliveJRJRJRJR : my plan is to take over from south, people in sourthern states hate one and another, they dont share water etc, karnataka in particular - divide and rule will work.

But our Best bet would be Chennai , it has an Harbor and an international airport. They have electricity too.Water was a problem, but this year it rained well so that is covered. They have one of the best bus services next to Bombay, and best commuter train system in the south.

Queen: what about the Banglore? I see them in news - people there always fight for their languages culture etc?

Henry 45th: Dear, NO! , you will never get coffee before 9.00am in the morning in Banglore, you see. I cannot take over Banglore, sleepy town in the south.

Queen: oh I heard there are pubs,

Henry 45th: so ? Still no coffee before 9.00am

Sir Robert CliveJRJRJRJR: Banglore gets electricity from Kalapakkam , a nuclear plant near Chennai. So I would take the source.

Queen: But Banglore roads are good,

Sir Robert CliveJRJRJRJR : it will take about 3 hrs for me to reach office every day. Single lanes at times;

Henry 45th : Also dear, Chennai has many international car industries , soon we can get BMW too.

Sir Robert CliveJRJRJRJR : Highness, They have a huge movie industry for entertainment. , not to miss the fantastic music festivals;
Have you heard of composers like A.R.Rahman or maestro Ilayaraja, they are in Chennai

Henry 45th :Banglore has more cricketers though, Draveed hails from there. One thing common in both the places - we can buy the politicians be it Tamil Nadu or Karnataka.

[contd..soon]

 

At 1/22/2006 3:28 AM,  THINKER said...

I'm not against any language/state.
My point is some section of peple in this country don't behave like
Indians first.India has many challenges today,despite the fact that v are supposedly future superpower.But given the present circumstances-without unity amongst us-can we achieve that.
Let's all of us strive for achieving that sacred goal

 

At 1/22/2006 5:12 AM,  "Citi"zen said...

Hi Thinker,I can only laugh at your previous comment.Chennai is considered insignificant in te world economics?.You mean to say that Bangalore is the only city in India which is on the world economic map ?.So Chennai is hot and humid,SO is Singapore.(Don't say singapore has the same climate as Bangalore).The guys from Bangalore and the guys from the Northern parts of India still think Chennai is worse.Okay,I am not going to argue here anymore.You people dont want to go by facts.You believe in perceptions.You guys dont even post the facts.You people will till be telling that Bangalore and Karnataka has the highest number of Engineering college and Karnataka is the only states producing quality engineers.(But will not accept the fact that noteven 10 % of techies in Bangalore are Kannadigas.This argument started for a city's sake and please dont post about the people or language.

Bangalore was a good city earlier,I accept.But now it has started to rot.Chennai which was on a decline in 80s and 90s is now fixing it up and showing its strenghts.Bangalore on the contrary is still driving on inertia. I myself liked the city 7 years before,But now it sucks.

Everything in Bangalore is beyind control now.Government of Karnataka is not able to prioritise the funding needed for the development of Bangalore. Much of the Money should go for the infrastructure front.Instead of going for 10 aesthetically constructed bridges,the government can go for 12 or 13 normal bridges which serves the purpose.Everything in Bangalore is glamorous,I dont deny that but it is a fact that it becomes boring after a while.You cannot see anything Indian in Bangalore if it grows on like this.Everything is rotting up there.

1. Roads,need not tell.

2. Cost of living..next to Mumbai.

3. Trees..are going away.

4. Bridges are always delayed,by the time the bridge comes up it doesn't serve the purpose.

5. culture..is no more indian.It is getting completely westernised.

6. People of Bangalore,once very courteous are becoming more and more arrogant.

7. Techies of Bangalore are the most arrogant lot.They usually have the attitude that ..."If not this company I will join another company. So dont order me or pressurise me."

8. People are talking about the chennai autos..they are one of the worst I accept.Bangalore autos do use meters,but they dont have even the basic coutesy.They just turn their head as if we are travelling for free.They come to the places where they like to go.
They too demand flatly or usually they ask for double meter..which comes to the same fair as that of Chennai and the meters in Bangalore are always tampered.In Chennai atleast the auto drivers are courteous eventhough they ask for more fares.They are ready to come to the place u want to go.

9. No power,absolutely.I dont know how are new companies going to cope up.Already houses in Bangalore are becoming more prone to power cuts,than anywhere else in India.When I was in Bangalore I dint have power for 4 days.After repeated calling the BESCOM,our house owner atlast found a guy who can correct the fault.If the companies want to come to Bangalore,Inspite of the high land prices,they have to Invest in heavy duty generators to keep their ofice alive.

10. And regarding the reservations, this is not the way to look at it.We are in such a situation only because of the reservations.If there are no reservations,lots of more scientists or more quality engineers would be present in India.Please dont say reservations are fair.If anyone is not up to the mark,let them bring them up to the mark.We should not be giving jobs to them based on tha fact that he is a kanndadiga.Usually there is an agreement b/w any software company and the state governemnt for the reservations for locals.But the software companies just recruit locally,only by the place and not by the language.So if the recruitment happens in Chennai it is for any one who can come there for the interview and not for tamilians alone.What happened in Bangalore was that they wanted the reservations for Kannadigas alone.

And you guys please dont stop your support for Bangalore.slowly you yourself will feel that it isn't true any more..

and regarding the Patriotism stuff you said in your latest post we are all patriotic and there is no doubt about it. But dont be patriotic about your own cities alone and dont deny the facts ..Is all I wanted to say.

This is my last post here and Mr.Thinker,If you think I am running away..you can asume that u have Won the argument.

 

At 1/02/2009 5:05 AM,  Anesha said...

Hi Nice Blog. Data data conversion services indiacan range from a simple one for one import to a complex procedure where non-relational data needs to be imported, validated, cleansed and split up into multiple tables in a new relational database structure.

 

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